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Misogyny Wars
The Misogyny Wars are a series of controversies related to misogyny and feminism which we have to deal with in atheist and skeptic communities. This page tries to track this ongoing military campaign and the part PZ Myers plays there. Massimo Piglucci named these affairs Misogyny Wars in a post on Rationally Speaking. Piglucci believes some but not all in the atheist-skeptic movement have difficulties over women. Piglucci called for fair and objective policies, that complaints should be investigated rationally without assuming one side or the other is automatically correct. Piglucci believes conference organizers have a responisbility to do the necessary work that thorough investigation involves. Piglucci condemned clear harassment but claims it's sometimes hard to tell borderline harassment from acceptable flirtation. Piglucci hoped for sensible middle of the road policies which neither forced women to put up with unpleasantness nor left men continually fearful about breaking vauge and ever shifting rules. The misogyny wars Harassment in the skeptic community We know there are men connected with the skeptical community who aren't respectful of women, here's PZ on one amazing character. The not-so-Amazing Atheist self-immolates. Sadly there are other men who make problems for women online, Goodbye for now The MRA even decided to make fake rape claims. Fools fail, f*ck their own sh*t up The evidence is clear to anyone who looks at various unpleasant websites. #So what should we assume? #Should we assume when those skeptical community rogues and other rogues meet women offline they stop unpleasantness, then behave with total respect and consideration? #Should we assume none of the difficult men or other likeminded men ever attend atheist conferences? #Should we assume everybody at atheist conferences desists from any bad behaviour that may have happened online? #Should we assume even after spending a long time at a bar no man at any atheist conference ever says anything inept, nerdish or malicious to any woman? #If you really imagine all that what planet have you been living on? We can't always tell definitively which complaints are true but overall there are too many complaints and it's likely that a high proportion are true. Non tolerance Women aren't by any means the only group that can face harassment. Therefore the American Atheists have decided on a policy aimed at protecting all participants and specifically several minorities are mentioned. PZ feels these rules are reasonable and consistent with civilized behavior. 2010 June 2010 The Woman Problem, a thread on Pharyngula in which women were asked to contribute suggestions to increase participation in atheist/skeptic movement activities. (Note: This post currently lacks comments due to the Natgeo switch, so the most important part of the thread has been lost.) 2011 June 2011 The beginning of Elevatorgate, the controversy centered on Rebecca Watson. 'Deep Rifts' Or 'The Humanity Of It All'... Part 1 is a post by blogger Suirauqa exhaustively documenting the major incidents of Elevatorgate. 2012 May 2012 The controversy over harassment policies begins, in the wake of comments by Jen McCreight about an informal network of women who communicate about harassment incidents involving male speakers. DJ Grothe, president of JREF, weighs in, and TAM spins off into its own controversy. In Medias Res: how to find the plot if you’re just tuning in is a post by Jason Thibeault at Lousy Canuck, advising people who are not fully informed about the controversy over harassment policies on how to get informed without irritating people who have been involved from the beginning. The comments contain further useful advice and links. Harassment policies campaign – timeline of major events from Lousy Canuck contains links to major blog posts in the controversy about the enactment of harassment policies at atheist/skeptic conferences. June-July 2012 Thunderf00t joined FTB, and almost immediately, he vehemently argued that harassment policies at conventions are unnecessary. He got banned from FTB, but he later got access to some FTB-admin e-mails, provoking further controversy. 2013 August 2013 Michael Shermer Did Michael Shermer rape anyone? We don't know. What can I do over the Shermer issue? I know even less than PZ does about these allegations. I can't say what happened one way or the other, I'm just reporting what I've read notably from Pharyngula and other FreethoughtBlogs. Statistically over 90% of rape allegations are true Fake rape?False Rape Allegations Rare, But 'Damaging Myths' Harm Real Rape Victims, Says CPS' Keir Starmer and PZ Myers supports the complainant. Rape allegations that appear false are sometimes the result of pressure from authorities to deny a rape that actually happened I Am a False Rape Allegation Statistic or other psychological pressure on vulnerable rape victims. One Reason Why False Rape Allegation Statistics Are So HighTaxi sex attacks: John Worboys' victims win payout bid This is unconnected with Michael Shermer but it shows the unnecessary stress police can put onto rape victims. It's probably obvious but trigger warnings for dealing with sexual assault and rape. First a quote from PZ: Another woman complained that Shermer kept her drink glass full, a common rape tactic. Richard Carrier works out how refilling a glass could have happened. At least since the Myers grenade exploded women know they should not focus only on how much they admire Shermer but also on what he may do with their glass. Remember this could have happened, we don't know for certain if Shermer did it. #What would the misogynist blogosphere have done if a female blogger has taken this up rather than PZ? Sarah Jones suggested that rape accusations should be taken seriously and got death threats for that. Opting Out #What would the misogynist blogosphere have done if the complaining women themselves had taken this up? Rape jokes and Reputations Are we surprised the complaining women would rather not be named? Jason Thibeault is strongly critical of those who think PZ should have kept silent. Stephanie Zvan noted Carrie Poppy and PZ Myers both trust the unnamed woman and both know her name. Greta Christina comments that an unnamed informant is different from an anonymous source and cites the informant, unnamed till years later, Deep Throat who provided reliable evidence about the Watergate scandal. Mark Felt a.k.a "Deep Throat" Christina notes a series of complaints from women, some giving their names, some unnamed against Michael Shermer. Protests range from sexual assault through to sexual advances which though legal were unpleasant and unwanted and Christina suspects a pattern to this. Incidentally 90% or more of sexual assault allegations are also true. False Allegations of Sexual Assualt: An Analysis of Ten Years of Reported Cases Ashley Miller also supports PZ. Ashley Miller notes that those opposing Michael Shermer have a record of working to help the skeptic movement and fight misogyny in order "to make skepticism better." Brian Thompson formerly of the James Randi Educational Foundation agrees there is a problem with Shermer. Richard Carrier thinks Shermer is selfish and has a thoroughly low opinion of the f***er very nice guy. What happens if a husband finds out and unfairly blames his wife? Blaming the victim is too frequent whether a woman is attacked Blaming the Victim or merely propositioned. All this if true suggests Shermer was thinking primarily about his own sexual gratification and wasn't too concerned about the possible effects on the women he targeted. #Has Shermer done "nothing wrong--legally or morally" as he himself states in the webpage that asked for donations to his legal fund? Michael Shermer Legal Fund Michael Shermer’s Note on the Legal Fund #Can Shermer explain to us why he contradicts what Carrier and Christina both write about him? #Alternatively can Shermer explain what his personal moral standards are? Can he explain why feels the unpleasant behavior Carrier and Christina both accuse him of was not morally wrong? 'Shermer's moral standards' In Feb 2013 Michael Shermer published a long text about science and morality, this was close on six months before PZ Myers' grenade exploded. The text shows what Shermer wanted readers to believe were major elements in his moral philosophy. All this was before Shermer knew he would be accused of several acts that he himself earlier wrote are decidedly immoral. #What do you do when someone pulls the pin and hands you a grenade? #PZ Myers’ Grenade, and Anonymous Accusations vs. Unnamed Sources: The “Deep Throat” Analogy #Michael Shermer: Rapist or Sleaze? Before the PZ Myers grenade exploded Shermer understood the harm rape does to the victim and understood that adultery harms the partner who is betrayed. Below is what he wrote in Feb 2013. Err well! Before Shermer was accused of propositioning a married woman in an unwelcome way he understood women frequently dislike such attention. Shermer wrote the quote below in 2010. Does a man really need to ask if a married woman likes to be propositioned while her husband is in the same room? Most people would know without asking that such propositioning is neither pleasant nor polite. Shermer suggested asking first, keeping quiet looks like a better idea. If Michael Shermer doesn't deny all the above accusations from Myers, Carrier and Christina many readers will wonder [[w:c:atheism:Hypocrisy|what type of a person Shermer really is]]. 'The law' Shermer threatened legal action and tried to silence PZ Shermer Sends Cease and Desist Letter to PZ but that didn't work. I also think that Shermer needs to be reminded of a little online phenomenon called the the Streisand effect – when you try to muzzle the internet, it has a tendency to bite…Gregory Greenwood Shermer didn't ask for legal funds but got them. I’m Just a Member of the Community The fundraser included a nasty rape joke where generous contributors were offered a bottomless glass of wine, with Emery “who will not be drinking but keeping your glass full.” This was a reminder how one woman complained about Shermer repeatedly refilling her glass. Anyway PZ also got legal help, Popehat who is experienced with online libel trouble offered to advise Myers. Last word for now So will there be legal fireworks? At least if this comes to court there's a chance we'll find out more one way or the other what really happened. Still with every month that passes a lawsuit looks less likely. Shermer suddenly claimed he knows who the accuser is though later he tried to backtrack. #So was the allegation a total shock to Shermer as he claimed in the 'Cease and desist' letter? Demand for Cease and Desist and for Retraction #Alternatively does Shermer know his accuser as suggested in the Loftus blog? All this could be the undoing of any legal action. If the court accepts that Shermer knows an accuser the court will also accept PZ Myers reported truthfully that someone accused Shermer of this heinous act. #If there are legal fireworks the story will almost certainly get more coverage. Newspapers and other news outlets are not now publishing this material but will be far less reluctant to publish details over court proceedings. Shermer may well come to regret any legal action against PZ Myers that he takes. #If there are no legal fireworks those who contributed to Shermer's legal fund and perhaps wanted to hurt PZ could be deeply disappointed. 'What should we do?' What do you do when someone pulls the pin and hands you a grenade? Well one thing you don't do is try to brush rape allegations under the carpet, serious accusations merit thorough investigation. We need to make it clear that the skeptical community isn't a safe place for those who abuse women. PZ Myers claims others in the skeptical movement are guilty of denial and cover up over sexual exploitation of women. Painfully close to the truth Greta Christina plans action when she knows more. Processing: The Sexual Harassment And Abuse Floodgates In General… And CFI In Particular (UPDATED AND CORRECTED) We should be better than those who do wrong in the name of religion. We should learn from the Roman Catholic child abuse scandal. Covering up the problem just made it worse, priests tempted to harm children had little incentive to exercise self control and men tempted to harm children had little incentive to avoid the priesthood. Then when finally the scandal couldn't be contained a great many high ranking Roman Catholics who weren't themselves child molesters were blamed (rightly) for allowing abuse to continue. We shouldn't allow abuse of adult women, in the same way the Roman Catholics shouldn't have allowed child abuse. #We can't prevent it that there are allegations about serious abuse of women in our organisations though we don't yet know what proportion of allegations are true. #We can avoid being complicit in abuse and can avoid sweeping allegations of serious abuse under the carpet. Suggestions that the story was made up don't look likely. PZ Myers and false rape accusations PZ Myers had a case for bringing this up, potential victims of someone who may be a serial rapist have been warned in a way that strives to safeguard the anonymity and safety of the woman who trusted him. Now let's not forget nothing has been proved against Shermer to the standards of criminal courts. Let's not forget either this article focuses on what PZ Myers and his supporters, especially at FreethoughtBlogs write. Readers looking for the other side should search elsewhere. Convicted sex offender A convicted sex offender called Cecil Fuson caused problems for Rebecca Watson, this time we know because he's on the sex offenders, register. He clearly has a legitimate, vested interestGetting to Know My Critics: Cecil Fuson, Sex Offender Ophelia Benson supports Rebecca. Against – against against against We're getting to know the murkier parts of the Internet. September 2013 After late August there were few new developments over Michael Shermer and neither side said very much new. Still Shermer's legal fund was getting donations. The fund closed on September 19th 2013. Drunken fantasies and more There's an accusation that after drinking DJ Grothe said Skepchicks, 'want pussy' and went on to fantasize about drugging and gang raping a man. The sexual harassment floodgate has opened, and I add my own trickleDJ and Me There is also an allegation that Grothe is holding up publication of potentially life-saving research on vaccine outreach because he is sensitive about the bad joke allegation. D.J. Grothe threatening legal action against WTinc For the time being readers will have to make do with a summary of the vaccine survey. A vaccination survey How does PZ feel about all this? One thing we do know, PZ is is pleased he won't have to attend a lecture by Grothe on of all subjects, Secular ethics. Oh, those secular ethics Accusations were also made against Lawrence Krauss but as of September 2013 there is no clear evidence. More names are named. October 2013 Several women accused Bora Zivkovic of pressuring them to talk about sex when they would have preferred to talk about other subjects. Since Zivkovic had power to advance or possibly to break the women's careers this was seen as abuse of power as well as harassment. PZ said he was pleased that the science community dealt with the matter and acted to protect women, he hopes the atheist community will learn from this and do more to protect women in future. Do better. Please just do better. Gossip & scandal galore in science blogging A close friend has written that Bora has been diagnosed with Asperger. Roots and bitters He may not have understood the distress he was causing or realised the women didn't like the conversation if this diaghnosis is correct. By contrast "Martin Robbins, who writes about science and other interesting things for The Guardian, Vice and New Statesman." suspects Zivkovic is cunning and manipulative. Missteps on the road back Zivkovic has lost his job and suffered a great deal. Zivkovic's Aspergers makes him vulnerable in some ways if he has the condition and it's hard for outsiders to decide whose right and whose wrong. People with better social skills than those with Asperger frequently have get away with far more than Zivkovic did, it's an unjust world. *Debunking 6 Myths About Asperger Syndrome This doesn't give information about Zivkovic personally but explains how people with Asperger can be socially inept. November 2013 A man, possibly Michael Shermer tried to assault Dr. Pamela Gay sexually, the perpetrator and location are (so far) unnamed. http://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=47853.0 PZ is concerned about the frequency of these events and the harm they cause women. The assault always happens twice So yet another accusation has surfaced against Michael Shermer. Does he still insist he's done nothing wrong. We still don't know for sure if Shermer will bring legal fireworks over the rape allegations published in August 2013 but with every month that passes legal action looks less likely. 2014 February/March 2014 PZ drew our attention to a problem but later Karen Stollznow who faces a complicated legal situation (see below) asked him to remove the post. The chupacabra beat must be a valuable and difficult one The critics are responded unkindly, Oh, lord, the stupid. It's starting to pan out. There have been accusations against an unnamed man referred to only as Mr. Bicycle Shorts. Ben Radford Many people have issues over the way Wikipedia is covering this. The Ben Radford affair has been going on since well before 2014 and there were complaints as early as 2013 that Karen Stollznow wasn't protected when Radford Ratford harassed her. Carrie Poppy tells all In 2013 Rebecca Watson and Jen McCreight quoted Karen Stollznow. Watson alleges other prominent skeptics campaign online against protection from harassment and harass women offline. Watson is reluctant to give names as she was told off record but hopes more women will have the courage to go public with complaints. Public complaints help protect other women. According to Stollzman an independent investigator found some of Stollznow's complaints proved and the harasser, widely named as Radford was suspended. This possibly coincided with a vacation, the affair is a bit mysterious since the independent investigaror's report was kept confidential. Ben Radford and CFI: A point of contention Adam Lee wrote, In February 2014 Lindsay wrote: Err well??? #Was Karen Stollznow treated compassionately? She says the CFI were compassionate at first but later treated her "like a nuisance" and refused to show her the report. #Were Karen Stollznow's accusations investigated thoroughly? Since the report has been kept under wraps we have no means of knowing. Perhaps Lindsay might consider publishing the controversial report so we can see how far he kept to his own standards. The Ben Radford affair resurfaced in February/March 2014 and continues into April. We don't know yet how it will end but it merits its own section. Radford is suing Karen Stollznow for defamation over her claims that Ben Radford messed with her. Ben Radford February/March 2014 In February 2014 Ben Radford published an article about false accusations of sexual misconduct generally, PZ despises that article and Ronald A. Lindsay, CEO of the CFI criticised the blog of his subordinate. The chupacabra beat must be a valuable and difficult one Notably even Ratford admits most accusations are true. Ronald A. Lindsay, confirms that false accusations of this nature aren't widespread. In March 2014 Rebecca Watson wrote about Radford trying to bully Karen Stollznow into retracting her accusations. Karen Stollzman claimed Matthew Baxter, Karen Stollzman's husband confirms that Stollzman didn't write an apology. So in February 2014 Radford wrote an article describing false accusations of sexual misconduct as, "chilling and repellent" and continued along similar lines for paragraph after paragraph. (False accusations are indefensible but that says nothing about true accusations.) Then in March 2014 Rebecca Watson claims Ratford tried to pretend Karen Stollznow had retracted her accusations. Did Ratford want people to believe Karen Stollznow.s complaints were, "chilling and repellent" false accusations? How could Karen Stollznow not fight such a serious threat to her reputation? Stollznow has to find the money to fight a court case. One blogger commented Below is Brian Thompson's take on the harassment allegations. This is part of what Karen Stollznow writes asking for financial support for her legal defense fund, For the full text of the quote above and a chance to contribute please go to Give a Voice to Harassment Victims, A legal fund for sexual harassment victim Karen Stollznow. Any money raised through this campaign that is not spent on these legal expenses will be donated to Colorado's Sexual Assault Victim Advocate Center. So your money will certainly go to a good cause. Ben Radford April 2014 The two once has a relationship which Karen Stollznow freely admits. He treated her badly and she doesn't want more of his attention. The quote below is useful background to events in April 2014. In August 6, 2013 Karen Stollznow wrote, PZ writes other women also knew enough about Radford to know who the accused man was. No, it could never happen to her! Radford Ratford harassed Karen Stollznow notably once, he photographed her (or a woman he now claims was her) against that woman's will and published the photo online claiming it is of Karen Stollznow. Jesus F. Christ. Since the photo has been online there is confirmation of this harassment. If the photo is of Stollznow this confirms her 2013 account that there were red flags she finally couldn't ignore. If the photo is of a different woman it shows Ratford has form. Is anyone surprised Karen Stollznow no longer consents to any relationship with him? Someone else called him, "Radscum". http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2014/04/02/jesus-f-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-777150 Jason Thibeault has published his take on the affair, it's a well reasoned analysis periodically updated. See Radford / Stollznow defamation case: What we know and what we can infer or extrapolate reasonably. Ben Radford knows quite a bit about people acting without thinking through consequences of their actions. #Did Ben Radford think through the consequences of photographing a woman in bed with him against her will? She probably felt violated the way a victim of sexual assault feels violated and he looked smug. "My god. What a revolting narcissistic scumbag." (PZ) #Did Ben Radford think through the consequences for Karen Stollznow of publishing the photo claiming it was of her? The woman faces the near certainty of slut shaming while people typically feel the man, 'made a conquest' and 'is successful with women'. The notorious double standard means a woman faces far more serious consequences if a sexually compromising photo of her is published. This is how slut-shaming works Or one appearing to be of her. #Did Ben Radford think through the consequences for himself of publishing that photo? That publication was clearly abusive as is the photo. Now few doubt he's at least partly to blame. Ben Radford should understand about not thinking through the consequences of actions. He does it himself. Karen Stollznow's legal defense fund has collected well over the target of $30,000 needed to start a preliminary defense and has been extended for a further 32 days. Give a Voice to Harassment Victims, A legal fund for sexual harassment victim Karen Stollznow.. Will this come to court? Ben Radford has started proceedings and Americans closer to the situation than I am assume the case will proceed. There's one big difference between the way things were at the start and the way things are now. #At the start it appeared Karen Stollznow wouldn't have the finance to defend herself effectively. #Now thanks to generous support Karen can fight this on equal terms. I can't get into Radford's mind and find out what he's thinking but it's possible to speculate that an equal fight might have less appeal to Radford than the unequal fight that seemed likely before. I don't know more than what the public knows, I'm speculating. #If the case goes to court I won't be surprised. #If the case is quietly dropped I won't be surprised either. Either way those who contributed and are contributing to Karen's defence fund have done a huge service freeing Karen from the nightmare of an unequal court battle with with a better funded opponent. What to do? We should be better than those who do wrong in the name of religion. We should learn from the Roman Catholic child abuse scandal. Covering up the problem just made it worse, priests tempted to harm children had little incentive to exercise self control and men tempted to harm children had little incentive to avoid the priesthood. Then when finally the scandal couldn't be contained a great many high ranking Roman Catholics who weren't themselves child molesters were blamed (rightly) for allowing abuse to continue. We shouldn't allow abuse of adult women, in the same way the Roman Catholics shouldn't have allowed child abuse. #We can't prevent it that there are allegations about serious abuse of women in our organisations though we don't yet know what proportion of allegations are true. #We can avoid being complicit in abuse and can avoid sweeping allegations of serious abuse under the carpet. General A note to those who say they oppose sexism and misogyny in the atheist-skeptical movement, by Pharyngula regular SC (Salty Current), summarizes some common responses to the discussion of sexism and misogyny. See also *Crystal Clear Consent *Sexism Education 101 Link Dump References Category:Humanism Category:Equality Category:Article stubs Category:Rape Culture